WoW Content Comparison

One of the relatively common criticisms of Warlords overall has been the lack of content in comparison to prior expansions. With 6.2 being confirmed as the last raiding tier and Blizzard rather adamantly opposed to creating new 5-man dungeons – despite them being “one of the greatest strengths of the genre” – I find it increasingly unlikely that a hypothetical 6.3 patch would include either. So what better time than now to offer some data to back up the claim?

For this part, I am taking all info from Blizzard’s own webpage:

Raids (Boss) Dungeons BGs (Arena) Other
Warlords of Draenor 3 (30) 8 0 (0) Garrisons?
Mists of Pandaria 5 (43) 9 3 (2) 18 Scenarios
1 Race/1 Class
Cataclysm 6 (31) 14 2 (0) 2 Races
World Revamp
Wrath of the Lich King 9 (54) 16 2 (2) 1 Class
The Burning Crusade 8 (44) 16 1 (3) 2 Races

If you found that I made a mistake somewhere in the calculations, let me know.

Otherwise… well, the results kind of speak for themselves, yeah? Cataclysm, hitherto the worst expansion in the game, was the closest to Warlords in terms of raid bosses. And yet it had six more dungeons, introduced two new Battlegrounds, two new races with entirely novel starting areas, and a complete revamp of the entire world. Perhaps not everyone necessarily wanted the old world revamp, but that still represented a rather insane amount of designer attention. The same sort of attention that has seemingly clocked out starting from Day 2 in Warlords.

Indeed, when you start thinking about it a bit deeper, the Warlords situation is even worse than first glance. The devs might have built eight dungeons, for example, but the dungeons were designed for no one to actually use them. I invite you to watch that mea culpa video from Ion Hazzicostas again, or perhaps for the first time. The TL;DR version is this reckoning:

Just to recap, Ion admitted to Blizzard screwing up Reputations, Apexis Dailies, endgame content in general, Professions, Garrisons, Dungeons, Demo Warlocks, requiring Disc Priests for serious raids, and that unfun ability rotations are intended.

I wanted to bring the above up again, just to point out that even if Warlords had a comparable amount of content to other expansions (it doesn’t), the base structure of the game denigrates the content that does exist. For example, suppose you want to include the ten Timerwalker Dungeons into the Warlords count for whatever reason, even though they are only actually available for a limited timeframe and aren’t even revamps of the originals. In that situation, I would argue that Warlords only has ten dungeons overall, since those ten Timewalker Dungeons are the only ones still relevant to anyone in the game (by dropping high-level gear). In contrast, even when you were progressing through ICC in Wrath, running Gundrak was useful in getting you Frost Badges and that much closer to a tier piece.

In a bizarre sense, Warlords is the result of Blizzard’s design working as intended. The devs have said for years that they wanted to get to a place where they could pump out faster expansions. And as players, we all agreed… but not to this. By “faster expansions,” we meant not waiting 12-14 months with zero content. Which, by the way, is still a very real possibility with Warlords.

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Posted on July 8, 2015, in WoW and tagged , , , , . Bookmark the permalink. 36 Comments.

  1. I don’t understand why people expect them to release the next expac earlier then fall 2016. That’s quite clear since they announce the date of Blizzcon 2015.

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  2. I find it amazing that FFXIV has found ways to make all content relative to all players all the time, but Blizzard’s only response has been to give less content, make most of it less relevant, and funnel the rest through some pretty similar playstyles for anything else.

    Of course, World of Warcraft will always have this vocal minority that decries casualization this and casualization that. Scaled dungeons that reward badges that can be used for gear 95% on par with anything you can get from a raid will always be contentious. Sadly, Blizzard stopped contending!

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    • I have had people in my FC complain though that the new 24-man won’t be out till August/September, so the at-drop new content is a bit small for Heavensward, but at least I feel safe in saying that there will be something new by December and again in March. Wish I could be that confident in WoW.

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      • I don’t want to sound judgmental – the shoe has certainly been on my foot too – but man, there’s still plenty to do in the game until then.

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      • Hahah, it’s ok, it just seemed like greed more than anything else. He was essentially told to just see how long it would take him to prep for it, he wasn’t even 60 yet.

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  3. I knew I liked WOTLK a lot more than any subsequent expansion, but did not realize that the differences in content were so pronounced. Thanks for compiling the math!

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  4. You forgot vanilla WoW in your comparison. 26 dungeons.

    Blackfathom Deeps
    Blackrock Depths
    Deadmines
    Dire Maul East
    Dire Maul North
    Dire Maul West (same Instance as North)
    Gnomeregan
    Lower Blackrock Spire
    Upper Blackrock Spire (Same instance as LBRS, technically a Raid)
    Maraudon
    Ragefire Chasm
    Razorfen Downs
    Razorfen Kraul
    Scarlet Monastery Armory
    Scarlet Monastery Cathedral
    Scarlet Monastery Graveyard
    Scarlet Monastery Library
    Scholomance
    Shadowfang Keep
    Stormwind Stockade
    Stratholme Undead
    Stratholme Main Gate (same Instance as Undead)
    Temple of Atal’Hakkar
    Uldaman
    Wailing Caverns
    Zul’Farrak

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  5. WoD also includes Tanaan for a new zone. MoP would have the three isles and queldanas for BC.

    I wouldn’t blame them too much for getting rid of chain running dungeons. They replaced this with timeless isle/Tanaan, which is IMO better. And tier gear hadn’t been available for valor since cata.

    One issue blizzard constantly runs into, seen most infamously during the great mop daily fiasco, is that multiple parallel progression paths can’t exist while not being mutually exclusive. This is why you can only equip three crafted pieces. If you could equip more, raiders would feel required to craft all the time and would then take to the forums to complain about it.

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    • Yeah, I was originally planning on having a Zone column and even taking a cursory glance at quest comparisons, but the table barely fits as it is.

      I feel that Blizzard replaced dungeons with LFR, not things like the Timeless Isle. The latter is clearly a faster way to get caught-up and such, but it isn’t quite the same as organized/structured group content. The new LFG tool makes things a bit better, but at the same time makes for an even less social experience than even the LFD tool in the few times I used it.

      As for the crafted piece limitation, that’s there because Blizzard doesn’t actually care about Professions anymore. If there was no limit, sure, everyone would wear crafted gear in every slot. But who in their right mind would utilize one of their three pieces for, say, boots, or a cloak, or a ring, or whatever, in comparison to something like a weapon? The thing about splitting the baby in these situations is that things don’t work out for the baby.

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      • LFR was the replacement back in MoP, but WoD not so much. Tanaan gear can be level 695, which beats the best LFR by 10 levels. I’m pretty much ignoring LFR entirely on my WoW token sojourn.

        I wouldn’t say Blizzard doesn’t care about professions “anymore”. That is, they care about them as much as they ever did, which may not be a lot. In MoP crafted gear only filled two slots, and those were fixed. I would have much preferred they just open crafted up entirely and make it an alternate gearing path, but given the epic hissy fit raiders threw back in MoP about required valor/rep farming, I can see why they didn’t.

        Now, you do have what they did to JC. JC was certainly not an interesting profession by any means, but it was at least useful.

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      • I would have much preferred they just open crafted up entirely and make it an alternate gearing path, but given the epic hissy fit raiders threw back in MoP about required valor/rep farming, I can see why they didn’t.

        Profession perks. A bit of a roller coaster there, but I think it could be argued that we have the raiders to blame for both the “equalization” of them and their removal. Well, their complaints at least.

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  6. The sad thing about the grid is that it leaves out added content, which Mists and Wrath had quite a bit of. Admittedly it’s harder to compare qualitative content, but I think it’s fair to say they had a lot more than WoD. In fact, it’s probably true that Cata, if they had introduced another zone like Molten Front, could be said to have handily outdone WoD in content.

    I have a friend that left near the end of Cata, and when I asked him why, he said that he felt that he’d been burned by Cata in comparison to Wrath (he had started at the end of BC) and that “pandas” turned him off things enough that he left. Interestingly, after describing how Pandaria shook out, he seems to have wished to have been there. The content would have probably been enough.

    Third point, the original reason they claimed way back that they wanted to have less content drought was to keep people playing and happy, and that being able to push out a new expac on a tighter schedule was part of that, while now it seems like pushing out a new expac sooner has become the goal, and the underlying reason why they went down this path has been forgotten. Or, alternatively, it’s an experiment to see just how much good will they have and just how little content they can get away with producing before the game collapses.

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  7. Just chiming in to mention that dungeons are not completely useless anymore.
    I have actually found myself running a few dungeons again after 6.2. The satchels I get from being a role that is in short supply (tank) contains 2 pieces of BoA balefull gear. Even disregarding my alts the platepieces give me extra attempts at good itemization for my 695 upgrades. This is fcause only worth something to me cause I can use the 695 gear :-)

    Other than that. Nice writeup :-)

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  8. The comparison is false if, and it’s a big if, Blizzard meet their stated goals of ‘more frequent expansions’. 2 expansions that combined last as long as Wrath would likely have a similar amount of content.
    Unfortunately, this means we are paying an extra $50 (or whatever) for the same amount of content.
    Can you imagine the outcry if WoD matched Wotlk for length and content but cost $100? But, somehow, Blizzard are trying to sell 2x $50 as a good idea.

    Of course, all this assumes that Blizzard can get that second expansion out… I think most of us still expect to be running around Hellfire Citadel when the film is released :-s

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  9. “If you found that I made a mistake somewhere in the calculations, let me know.”

    There’s a bit off there.

    For example, you’re looking at total bosses for an expansion rather than bosses/month, which makes WoD look bad because it’s designed to be a shorter expansion (which is what many people have been wanting for years). As the info below indicates, you’re also miscounting raid bosses — if you include non-tier bosses then Cata had 28 while WoD had 30…if you include all raid bosses then Cata had 32 while WoD had 34. Either way WoD wins, and WoD did it in like half of the time.

    Dungeons/scenarios are also intentionally being phased out/lessened — people overall hated scenarios, the idea of running dungeons over and over again for badges was bad, and dungeons are a really bad time/result ratio for Blizzard on top of that. You can disagree with Blizzard’s resulting stance if you want, but it’s hardly fair to try to claim they don’t have enough dungeons when you know Blizzard is INTENTIONALLY not doing more dungeons.

    Written a lot more lately, not wanting to retype it all again so…

    General stuff:

    http://balkothsword.blogspot.com/2015/07/been-rather-busy-but-cross-post.html

    Dungeons/Expansion Costs:

    http://marcleoseguin.com/2015/07/02/wow-raiding-done-for-wod/comment-page-1/#comment-5188

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    • Honestly, the “players want shorter, more frequent expansions” is a bit of a cynical misdirection on Blizzard’s part. Do players actually want yearly expansions? Or do they want to avoid going an entire year without content? Releasing Warlords 6-8 months after SoO would technically have made Mists a “shorter expansion,” but not in any meaningful sense. In every practical sense, Mists ended half a year after the last content patch and Blizzard “released” a null expansion.

      As for raid bosses, as stated, those are the ones Blizzard listed on their own website.

      Regarding dungeons, well, I must once again refer you to Lead Designer Ion Hazzikostas who very clearly stated small-group content was “one of the greatest strengths of the genre.” And even if it’s not, it does represent developer time/attention that does not appear to be being replaced or shifted elsewhere. Maybe we’ll be surprised at BlizzCon with an imminently released expansion? If not, I find it a very flimsy argument that players are getting the same value out of expansions as we have in the past in terms of designed content.

      Having read your links, it’s a fair point that those people who merely want more leveling content probably would want more frequent expansions… so they can sub and quit a month later. I think it’s clear though that questing content is perhaps the most expensive content possible to create (as it requires world-building, etc), with what amounts to the lowest return (compared to those who stay subbed year-round). Nevermind how those individuals in no way add to the “stickiness” of the game, or meaningfully contribute to the (social) content generators.

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      • “Do players actually want yearly expansions?”

        Yes. Note I did not say “all” players, but a great many would like that. In part because…

        “Or do they want to avoid going an entire year without content?”

        For a massive chunk of players (certainly larger than the Heroic/Mythic raiding crowd (note: I lead the top two night a week Mythic guild in the entire US, so this is not my perspective I’m presenting)) they already go months without content. They log into a new patch, do some new quests/reputations, faceroll through LFR as fast as it opens, and are bored after killing the final boss on LFR a few times (or sometimes even once). These are often the same people who complain about LFR being gated at all.

        They have no interest in normal raids, let alone heroic/mythic raids — so they don’t care about the remaining 4-5 months left in a tier once they’ve “done everything.” Their dream goal would be patches like 5.1 (the Krasarang Wilds patch) coming out every month or something with a new LFR to faceroll through each time.

        But, of course…

        “I think it’s clear though that questing content is perhaps the most expensive content possible to create (as it requires world-building, etc), with what amounts to the lowest return (compared to those who stay subbed year-round).”

        You are completely correct on this point. If Blizzard *could* do that dream goal, they would. But it simply isn’t possible to produce content faster than the players can consume it without severe time or skill gating.

        “Nevermind how those individuals in no way add to the “stickiness” of the game, or meaningfully contribute to the (social) content generators.”

        I completely agree with this as well. When I read comments like “At max level there’s no reason to see other players outside of LFR” it makes me sick to my stomach (okay, it doesn’t literally make me sick, but I cannot fathom playing WoW like that and it’s completely opposite to my experience).

        But last I recall, only something like 20% of the playerbase did Flex/Normal raiding, right? From a business perspective, it makes complete sense to try to target as much of the other 80% as they can (no, I don’t think they can actually target the full 80% or something, just a large chunk) with frequent expansions while still churning out a new raid every six months or whatever — if you’re a raider, then you mainly want something to BE raiding at reasonable intervals and the other details matter a LOT less.

        “As for raid bosses, as stated, those are the ones Blizzard listed on their own website.”

        Well, count ’em yourself and you’ll see my numbers are right. Isn’t one of your points that Blizzard has screwed a lot of things up? :P

        “I must once again refer you to Lead Designer Ion Hazzikostas who very clearly stated small-group content was “one of the greatest strengths of the genre.””

        Can I refer you to Lead Designer Ion Hazzikostas who very clearly stated

        “We felt that was a little silly to keep running the same content as you got stronger and stronger and stronger, still getting that reward, which is why we removed something like valor points.”

        That’s what happened in BC. That’s what happened in WotLK. That’s what happened in Cata. That’s what happened in MoP.

        And your answer of “JUST MAKE MORE DUNGEONS” doesn’t work for the same reason the “WE WANT MASSIVE QUESTING EXPERIENCES EVERY MONTH” doesn’t work — dungeons tend to be consumed incredibly quickly despite often requiring an amount of artwork comparable to some raids.

        I mean, maybe Blizzard will come up with some brilliant solution for 5 mans (note that they already added Challenge Modes and Mythic dungeons in an attempt to improve the value from dungeons) but they haven’t presented it yet and I’ve never seen anyone else present one either. If you have such a solution then by all means present it.

        “If not, I find it a very flimsy argument that players are getting the same value out of expansions as we have in the past in terms of designed content.”

        I have a tank in my guild who’s been tanking for us since the beginning of Cataclysm. Best tank I’ve ever met, arguably one of the best players I’ve ever met. He loathes 5 man dungeons, hates em, only likes to raid tank. He doesn’t care about the “lack” of relevant dungeons in WoD. He doesn’t care about the lack of max level solo content either.

        My point is that the “value” greatly depends on the player.

        My tank friend probably thinks the value is pretty much the same as always (and if we avoid a 12+ month final patch he’ll probably like WoD more than WotLK/Cata/MoP for that reason alone).

        I actually care about lore and enjoy both questing and dungeons — I’ve noticed the obsolescence of dungeons and lack of solo max level stuff but it doesn’t really bother me. I mostly play to raid, I liked the leveling experience, and I enjoy time with my guild — which often extends to other games beyond WoW (like Civilization V, SC2, etc). I think WoD is weaker in some regards than, say, MoP because I really liked patch 5.1 and the dailies with the overarching quest chain…but I still like it overall.

        Someone who mainly does dungeons/max level solo content would have loathed WoD (and for good reason from their perspective).

        I mean, imagine that next expansion launches with the equivalent of most expansion launches plus loads of Mythic raider only content. My tank friend and I would be happy and think there’s tons of extra content…but 97% of the population (or something like that) would think there’s no additional content.

        Designed content only matters to those who actually find that designed content interesting.

        (Again, note that I think WoD has several major flaws in quite a few areas — I hardly think it’s perfect. But that’s a far cry from thinking it’s the worst expansion by far with nothing to do and Blizzard sucks and so on — but I might even agree with the claim that, for the time period, it is the worst expansion to date).

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      • If you have such a solution then by all means present it.

        They have the solution already, they just don’t like it: Valor/Badges.

        I played the game for 5 years straight and finally got burned out by the raiding scene. But I didn’t want to leave my friends, so I stuck around for a while afterwards. And what is an activity that the friends you make in WoW do together that meaningfully progresses your character(s)? Dungeons. Even if they’re faceroll. Especially if they’re faceroll.

        The issue isn’t that people burn through dungeons quickly, the issue is that there isn’t anything to do with other people on a daily basis. Reputations and dailies work for a while, but if you friend(s) break ahead, it becomes a waste of their time to do it with you. Valor though? Until and unless you hit the cap, everybody is getting something.

        Someone who mainly does dungeons/max level solo content would have loathed WoD (and for good reason from their perspective).

        I feel safe saying that that’s the majority of players. And that’s why this expansion is worse than Cataclysm, which initially took away dungeons from over half the audience by making them way, way too hard.

        It honestly feels like Warlords is a totally different game, like they grabbed designers from other MMOs and just let them loose.

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      • “Valor though? Until and unless you hit the cap, everybody is getting something.”

        Which can also turn it into an indefinite weekly/daily grind for *everyone.” What do you wish valor (or something similar) rewarded? Worse than LFR gear? Between LFR and normal gear? Between normal and heroic? Between heroic and mythic? Better than mythic? Gear “upgrades” like MoP?

        “And what is an activity that the friends you make in WoW do together that meaningfully progresses your character(s)? Dungeons. Even if they’re faceroll. Especially if they’re faceroll.”

        Say an expansion launches, lasts 12 months, and has a patch every 3 months (with two raid tiers total, at launch and at six months in). Are you saying you’d be satisfied running the same 8-16 dungeons again and again for that whole year with new gear or whatever each patch (which is basically what happened in BC/WotLK/Cata/MoP — yeah, Magister’s Terrace was *one* dungeon added at the end of BC, there were a whole *four* dungeons added over two years of WotLK, and *five* during Cata…though ZA/ZG caused major problems as they weren’t faceroll)? If not, what would you say it the minimum amount of content “expected” per patch or month or whatever? If dungeons are added each patch, should you ever switch away from running the initial ones or does the “pool” just expand?

        “I feel safe saying that that’s the majority of players.”

        I feel even safer saying that it’s not given that, last I heard, not even half of the playerbase ever hit max level. On top of that, while only 20% or so of the playerbase may do normal raids or above, part of the other 30%ish of max level players is engaged in PvP and doing arenas/rated battlegrounds or even people who love collecting pets/mounts and don’t care about gear.

        I *would* agree that it’s a significant *minority* of players — wouldn’t even surprise me if it was something like 20-40% of the total playerbase. But definitely not a majority.

        “And that’s why this expansion is worse than Cataclysm, which initially took away dungeons from over half the audience by making them way, way too hard.”

        This may not surprise you, but I *loved* the start of Cataclysm and those dungeons.

        Mind you, I agree with you that they were way too hard *given the lack of other content for players to do.*

        “It honestly feels like Warlords is a totally different game, like they grabbed designers from other MMOs and just let them loose.”

        I would disagree. As foreveranoob put it (https://foreveranoob.wordpress.com/2015/07/03/all-the-blizzard-hate/) , a lot of stuff was the logical extension of what people wanted in the past.

        People wanted something of their own and generally like the farm…so GARRISONS.

        People wanted to play with their friends in easier raids but not LFR faceroll and responded well to Flex…so normal AND heroic are both flex now!

        People complained about “10 vs 25″…so MYTHIC 20 man only!

        People hated having to valor cap every week as a grind (*you* might not have but loads of people complained all across the playstyle spectrum) — so no more valor!

        People didn’t like running the same dungeons over and over again (again, talking in general, not you or me specifically) …so have them obsolete once you don’t need the gear rather than force you to keep doing them!

        People hated dailies in MoP (well, at least the initial launch ones)…so no more dailies like those and barely any max level solo content in general!

        Etc.

        The problem was that if you take all of them together you wind up gutting the game for people who don’t want to engage in organized group content at ANY level of difficulty (PvP OR PvE) and their experience sucks. They basically just took away stuff from the “solo” player and added it to other sections of the game (raids are better than ever for many reasons) but didn’t replace the stuff for “solo” players with anything those players wanted.

        I mean, hell, I used to do *all* of the quest achievements at max level because I like questing and lore…but the *62* quest achievements they added in WoD overwhelmed me and I didn’t feel like doing them. Apparently most other people didn’t either.

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      • Which can also turn it into an indefinite weekly/daily grind for *everyone.” What do you wish valor (or something similar) rewarded?

        That’s the point. It’s a (gear) progression MMO. When you can no longer progress, the game is over. And while I’m sure the Mythic raiders “aren’t playing for gear,” I don’t see too many of them immediately unsubbing the first time they defeat the last raid boss. The gear provides a reason to farm bosses, so as to give a leg-up in the next tier.

        As for what exactly Valor would award, again, we have years of evidence over what works.

        Are you saying you’d be satisfied running the same 8-16 dungeons again and again for that whole year with new gear or whatever each patch?

        The dungeon releases can be staggered. The Wrath model was fine; there was an incentive to run just the newer ones until you got the good stuff, then you settled back into LFD for the badges. The ZA/ZG fiasco is the one real thing to avoid. The key is to not necessarily incentivize chain-running the same dungeons (or any of them) multiple times per day.

        I feel even safer saying that it’s not given that, last I heard, not even half of the playerbase ever hit max level.

        Of the players that don’t hit max level, how many are still subscribed? And if they aren’t, why are we even counting them as players? But, nevermind, let’s just say “plurality” and be done with it.

        I would disagree. As foreveranoob put it , a lot of stuff was the logical extension of what people wanted in the past. […]

        The changes in no way, shape, or form were “logical” extensions – they were over-reactions. Ion has admitted this is multiple interviews about pendulum design. People complained about too many dailies in Mists, so… NO DAILIES. People complained about too many reputations, so… NO REPUTATIONS. Except, wait, there’s no endgame outdoor content, so they tossed in a few token reputations at the last minute. And that’s not my own narrative, but Ion’s.

        The Garrison is a logical extension of farms. But as the devs pointed out, they were designed in such a way so as to be required, so everything that was good outdoors was folded inside, as the devs were afraid no one would do them otherwise. That part was not a logical extension of the very optional farms.

        And indeed, the gutting of dungeons was not a logical extension of anything. The devs… just didn’t like the successful design of the prior expansions. That’s it. I mean, okay, it’s their game… but that’s just stupid.

        I don’t want to deify Wrath here or anything, but tell me what would be lacking in a Wrath 2.0 with the tools Blizzard has today. The problems of that era have been solved with Mythic Dungeons/Challenge Modes, Flex raiding, and… what else? What else was deficient? Some of the best group AND solo content design ever released.

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      • “And while I’m sure the Mythic raiders “aren’t playing for gear,” I don’t see too many of them immediately unsubbing the first time they defeat the last raid boss.”

        I think you missed my point but are already acknowledging part of it — if Mythic raiders are ALREADY grinding gear from raids each week, why should they need to be grinding 5 mans too? Ditto Heroic Raiders. Ditto however far down the difficulty ladder you want to go.

        If Blizzard made 5 mans give valor for gear slightly below LFR each tier, I wouldn’t object in terms of how it would affect me, at least. Because I can ignore that and focus on the grind that I *already* do.

        Could even do between LFR and normal if you make sure you have some sort of daily or weekly cap to avoid it rendering LFR gear irrelevant.

        Same thing can apply to PvP too — depending on exactly what you make the rewards you could cause PvPers who do Arena/Rated BGs to have to dungeons as well in addition to their Honor/Conquest grinds.

        “As for what exactly Valor would award, again, we have years of evidence over what works.”

        How do you figure that?

        BC gave gear above Heroic Dungeons but below raids (until Sunwell, at which point better gear was added, forget exactly how it related to other gear offhand).

        WotLK gave gear equivalent to 10 mans for Naxx and Ulduar, I believe? Then in TotC and ICC it was equivalent to 10H/25N?

        Cata gave gear equivalent to normal raids and included tier tokens for some tiers.

        MoP gave gear equivalent to normal MSV and then allowed people to literally upgrade individual items later on.

        Note that I’m using the terminology from the time period — meaning the Cata model would be the equivalent of Heroic gear now.

        So which of those worked the best? Which should be used (and perhaps you think the answer is a combination)?

        “The Wrath model was fine…The key is to not necessarily incentivize chain-running the same dungeons (or any of them) multiple times per day.”

        Clarify the first part? Ulduar didn’t give any new dungeon. TotC gave one dungeon. ICC gave three dungeons. Is one new dungeon per raid tier with loot slightly below that raid tier sufficient, like TotC?

        How do you feel about the fact you wound up with a lot of groups that had people just jet if they got the ICC dungeons after they didn’t need the gear?

        “If the players that don’t hit max level, how many are still subscribed? And if they aren’t, why are we even counting them as players? But, nevermind, let’s just say “plurality” and be done with it.”

        Quite a few — even if you average two hours per level (less early on, more later on) to get to 100 is 200 hours of gameplay. If you played an hour a day it would take you over half a year to hit max level…assuming you didn’t start leveling OTHER characters along the way. Heard of a lot of people (not a plurality most likely) who have a bunch of characters with none at max level. They eventually get tired of that character and start a new one, usually a new class and/or race, sometimes new server.

        “The changes in no way, shape, or form were “logical” extensions – they were over-reactions.”

        I’m not sure if you’re aware, but this is Blizzard we’re discussing here. I often wonder if they know how to NOT over-react. Remember, you were saying you thought they had replaced the whole staff with new designers from other MMOs or something :P But it sounds like “same ol’, same ol” to me.

        “Except, wait, there’s no endgame outdoor content, so they tossed in a few token reputations at the last minute. And that’s not my own narrative, but Ion’s.”

        Where did I disagree? Pretty sure I’ve said multiple times that WoD massively lacked stuff the “solo” players were used to.

        “That part was not a logical extension of the very optional farms.”

        It’s a logical extension if they were investing a ton of time and energy into it, far beyond the farm. Again, keep in mind I’m not defending Garrisons (I never cared about personal housing or whatever in the first place)…but if you start with the premise that Blizzard wanted them to be a central feature of the expansion (after an initial experiment with the farm) then the rest does make sense. Even if “the rest” includes some really bad ideas and some really bad execution of decent/good ideas.

        “And indeed, the gutting of dungeons was not a logical extension of anything.”

        Blizzard Dev 1: Guys, we’re getting complaints from players that they don’t like running the same dungeons over and over for special points that are not even associated with any particular dungeon. They think we’ve just turned them into point dispensers and they evaluate dungeons in terms of points/hour.
        Blizzard Dev 2: Hmm…they do have a point. Why does Heroic Halls of Stone give ICC equivalent gear and why are they having to run it a 50th time? And the first 12 times it gave weak gear, the next 13 times it gave slightly stronger gear, the next 12 times gave stronger gear still, and now it’s giving ICC gear for these past 13 runs.
        Blizzard Dev 1: Well..what if we just removed those points and made dungeons simply drop the loot in them? Then, we add a tourist mode with better gear each tier, make raid sizes flexible so that PUGing is easier, make it cross-realm as well, and add an in-game tool so people can easily do at least normal raids? Then they see new bosses, new gear, and new experiences per patch? No more being stuck in the same five mans all expansion!
        Blizzard Dev 2: I like it. Surely the players will love not being expected to run the same dungeons daily for the entire expansion. What could go wrong?

        “I don’t want to deify Wrath here or anything, but tell me what would be lacking in a Wrath 2.0 with the tools Blizzard has today. The problems of that era have been solved with Mythic Dungeons/Challenge Modes, Flex raiding, and… what else? What else was deficient? Some of the best group AND solo content design ever released.”

        Well, what PART of Wrath are we discussing? I’ll assume ICC for now.

        1, you had to do a daily heroic each day or lose out on the Badges permanently, which usually meant having to dedicate 20-30 minutes a day (possibly more for DPS) minimum on top of anything else. That’s not good design — encouraging people to log in more than once per week or something is fine, but every day for a dungeon? No. But let’s say you shift it to more of a Cata style system where there’s a weekly cap but the first each day gives a bonus (so incentive to log on each day but can make up lost ground if you’re busy some days and freer on others).

        2, assuming we still have the raid system of LFR/Normal/Heroic/Mythic, then people would be getting Heroic items for doing dungeons. If you’re an LFR or Normal player, this strongly disincentives moving to Heroic once you “finish” your content since you’ll likely not need much gear at all from Heroic. If you’re a Heroic or Mythic raider, you’re still having to grind those dungeons for a while until you’re in all Heroic or better gear. You’re also getting gear that’s far more powerful than the effort required would indicate (and thus can also discourage people from even doing LFR or normal because the gear is worse than dungeons). But let’s say you used the Valor system of Cata (from point 1 which has a weekly cap) coupled with making the valor gear between LFR and Normal (so LFR/dungeon players get upgrades over time, Normal raiders can fill weaker slots, and it’s irrelevant for Heroic/Mythic raiders).

        3, there was no solo content…unless you count the sword questline which depended on a very rare drop. Maybe I’m forgetting something about the ICC patch but I recall it revolving around spamming Heroics with the new LFD tool and doing ICC raids.

        Those are three significant issues that I recall offhand (trying not to nitpick smaller things or things not really discussed in this topic so far).

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      • if Mythic raiders are ALREADY grinding gear from raids each week, why should they need to be grinding 5 mans too? Ditto Heroic Raiders. Ditto however far down the difficulty ladder you want to go.

        If Blizzard made 5 mans give valor for gear slightly below LFR each tier, I wouldn’t object in terms of how it would affect me, at least. Because I can ignore that and focus on the grind that I *already* do.

        I don’t want to denigrate what you do in any way, raiding like you do 2 nights a week is very impressive, but it bugs the hell out of me that they destroyed the only consistent thing in WoW I enjoyed to cater to your “needs” and lack of self control. And you seem SO angry for me asking for content, content that would have kept me subbed mind you, that you can’t hold yourself back from doing.

        I unsubbed because they decided that, even though they “had learned their lesson on dungeons” they weren’t going to bring anything new, only spend the equivalent of less than 10% of development costs to make the 8 dungeons they had “Mythic”. Dungeons that I have run so many times I can’t stand to see the inside of anymore. And it would seem you’d be pissed about current mythic dungeon gear, I mean hell, it’s not below LFR, you must need it all.

        BC gave gear above Heroic Dungeons but below raids (until Sunwell, at which point better gear was added, forget exactly how it related to other gear offhand).

        WotLK gave gear equivalent to 10 mans for Naxx and Ulduar, I believe? Then in TotC and ICC it was equivalent to 10H/25N?

        Isle of Quel’Danas vendors gave gear below Black Temple by 5-10 ilvl, and 25 below Sunwell. The earlier vendor in Shatt only had low level gear until ZA came out when they started selling equivalent gear. Wrath vendors gave 25N gear. Never enough for a full set, but filler pieces. Cata had equivalent gear to tier. Interesting that they actually inflated gear access over those expansions, isn’t it?

        Well, what PART of Wrath are we discussing? I’ll assume ICC for now.

        We aren’t frozen in amber, change is fine. The conversion of the valor grind from daily to weekly is a good example of that. Lack of content short of raiding isn’t fine though. I changed MMOs after a month break. FFXIV for some reason can issue new content every 3-31/2 months. Quests and dungeons/raids. WoW on the other hand has seemed to present less and less with each expansion since Wrath. I don’t want to blame the raiding community for that direction, but you aren’t helping.

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      • I think you missed my point but are already acknowledging part of it — if Mythic raiders are ALREADY grinding gear from raids each week, why should they need to be grinding 5 mans too? Ditto Heroic Raiders. Ditto however far down the difficulty ladder you want to go.

        Because you want people to have something meaningful to do the other five nights a week. Some reason to log on, so that guild chat isn’t dead, so you’re rubbing elbows with other people, so that better players have a reason to go into LFD and class-up the place (or just breeze through with a guild premade).

        I’m not opposed to structuring things such that a Mythic guild gets enough Valor from boss kills that they don’t need to go into dungeons, as a “reward.”

        How do you figure that?

        Tier gear of any level works, for example.

        Regardless, it would have to be above LFR at a minimum, otherwise it’s pointless – people will complete LFR in an evening and be done for the week. I’d say on par with Heroic or possibly slightly below. That way a more casual raiding guild can have hope that each week’s attempts at the “impossible boss” will be slightly more possible than the week before. Hell, we could set the system up to be at Heroic gear level and just use Warforged/bonus procs be the incentive to keep going.

        Clarify the first part? Ulduar didn’t give any new dungeon. TotC gave one dungeon. ICC gave three dungeons. Is one new dungeon per raid tier with loot slightly below that raid tier sufficient, like TotC?

        How do you feel about the fact you wound up with a lot of groups that had people just jet if they got the ICC dungeons after they didn’t need the gear?

        Personally, I’d like at least 2-3 per raid tier. This is entirely doable when you only have 8 dungeons at release. And yeah, when I talk about Wrath dungeons, I’m typically referring to post-LFD, which came at the end.

        As for players bailing, I don’t see anything different from that and people bailing for any other reason. In the ~10 Warlords dungeons I did, I seen three people bail right after killing the first or second boss. Besides, Halls of Reflection was a pretty terrible dungeon, and I don’t blame anyone for bailing on that one.

        Quite a few — even if you average two hours per level (less early on, more later on) to get to 100 is 200 hours of gameplay. […]

        The good news is that by definition, nothing we’re talking about affects those players anyway, so there’s no reason (or, really, ability) to cater to them. Hell, even more frequent expansions do nothing for them.

        Well, what PART of Wrath are we discussing? I’ll assume ICC for now.

        I was referring to all of Wrath. The 10/25m tension would be gone, the raiding 4 difficulty’s worth of raids each week would be gone, plenty of progression content for solo players in LFR and LFD (with Valor), dailies and reputations were at a good mix, etc. Add in Pet Battles, Archaeology, Transmog, and profession reasons to go back out into the world, and it’d be brilliant.

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      • “I don’t want to denigrate what you do in any way, raiding like you do 2 nights a week is very impressive, but it bugs the hell out of me that they destroyed the only consistent thing in WoW I enjoyed to cater to your “needs” and lack of self control.”

        How far does this “lack of self-control” argument go? You could use the same argument to complain about the idea of a 1000 weekly valor cap (or whatever) like they had in Cata and MoP. Since you don’t raid this next part wouldn’t apply to you, but you could also complain about the idea of a weekly raid lockout they’ve had since Vanilla.

        Exactly where does it shift from “You need more self-control” to “Blizzard’s correct to control player behavior?”

        “And you seem SO angry for me asking for content, content that would have kept me subbed mind you, that you can’t hold yourself back from doing.”

        Let’s say you were an alchemist and wished flasks/potions were much harder to make so the profession felt more engaging. At what point would I be “right” to complain that your desires are driving up the cost of raiding too much? Or is the answer “never, you should have enough self-control to not use flasks/potions?”

        But I don’t really even think the above example is fair since creating more engaging professions is, in theory, a good thing. But we’re not talking about making the dungeons more engaging, we’re talking about them giving better and better rewards for doing the exact same thing for the entire expansion that are also completely out of whack with the difficulty of the content.

        I mean, Blizzard is basically putting lipstick on a pig here. Doing the same 8-16 dungeons for over a year at the same difficulty for ever increasing rewards is not a good design decision (and technically the difficulty is actually getting easier and easier for better and better rewards due to said gear). If Blizzard added a third raid tier in WoD and it was literally just returning to Hellfire Citadel but now it had better drops do you think raiders would think that was acceptable? If that’s a terrible idea for raids I’m struggling to see how it’s not a terrible idea for dungeons.

        “And it would seem you’d be pissed about current mythic dungeon gear, I mean hell, it’s not below LFR, you must need it all.”

        It drops 685s with a small chance at 705s. Mythic raiders already had full 700s-706s coming into this tier and were getting 705+ gear from the first Heroic boss in HFC. Blizzard choose their ilevels carefully.

        “Interesting that they actually inflated gear access over those expansions, isn’t it?”

        Looked to me more like they always had the gear at the lowest raid difficulty setting as time went on ;)

        They also specifically and intentionally removed the ability to buy tier gear without stepping foot in a raid. Their goal was to provide raiders with bad luck a chance to get at least a halfway decent item in a slot. To supplement raid gear.

        “Lack of content short of raiding isn’t fine though.”

        Not sure why you’re stating this? I’ve said as much several times already.

        The part that has me confused is how we’re going from “People who don’t want to raid need content to do” to “That content should offer rewards so strong that Mythic raiders feel obliged to do said content.”

        “I’m not opposed to structuring things such that a Mythic guild gets enough Valor from boss kills that they don’t need to go into dungeons, as a “reward.””

        So you basically want Cataclysm’s system?

        “Tier gear of any level works, for example.”

        That’s not going to happen — Blizzard very intentionally removed tier gear from purchasable items a while ago and then very intentionally removed tier gear from LFR too. They want people to actually raid if they want tier gear.

        “I’d say on par with Heroic or possibly slightly below.”

        Did you read the section about how equivalent to Heroic would cause problems? Even between Normal and Heroic is problematic for Normal raiders — did you notice how Blizzard didn’t like how the “difficulty + 1” system for garrisons worked in HM/BRF? In HFC you only get bonus loot from your current difficulty, not any higher.

        “The good news is that by definition, nothing we’re talking about affects those players anyway, so there’s no reason (or, really, ability) to cater to them”

        Sure, but even you weren’t considering their existence earlier. It’s not “20% of the playerbase raids ergo 80% of the playerbase only does max level solo content/dungeons.” It’s more like “20% of the playerbase raiders, 15% of the playerbase PvPs without raiding, and 40% of the playerbase isn’t even max level…which means it’s 25% of the playerbase only doing max level solo content/dungeons.”

        “dailies and reputations were at a good mix”

        Were any dailies or non-raid reputations added besides TotC? IIRC people went nine months from launch with nothing new in that regard (which is longer than WoD has been out at this point…) and then another 10ish months after TotC with again nothing new. Note: it was actually way longer than 10ish months but I’m *pretending* Cataclysm launched on time rather than ICC dragging on far too long. We’re pretending it was the ideal…which was still nine months until a patch with dailies/reputations and then nothing else for the rest of the expansion (which should have been about 10 months).

        That sounds pretty bad to me.

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      • A small point, I don’t raid anymore, but it’s not that I don’t want to, it’s that I can’t. I don’t have a set schedule, and I think they have overtuned Normal this expac, making pugging harder than it was in Mists. (Not my situation, but indicative of tuning).

        So to keep me subbed I need new content, and not just a new zone every 6 months.

        It drops 685s with a small chance at 705s. Mythic raiders already had full 700s-706s coming into this tier and were getting 705+ gear from the first Heroic boss in HFC. Blizzard choose their ilevels carefully.

        Right, I knew that, but the part I quoted had you complaining about dungeons dropping better-than-LFR gear, so apparently we were dealing with a ton of hyperbole on your part. If Blizzard were to listen to what you said, and take it at face value, “Mythic” dungeons wouldn’t have been made either.

        Doing the same 8-16 dungeons for over a year at the same difficulty for ever increasing rewards is not a good design decision (and technically the difficulty is actually getting easier and easier for better and better rewards due to said gear). If Blizzard added a third raid tier in WoD and it was literally just returning to Hellfire Citadel but now it had better drops do you think raiders would think that was acceptable? If that’s a terrible idea for raids I’m struggling to see how it’s not a terrible idea for dungeons.

        More dungeons and better spacing on them is hugely important. The 8-16 isn’t fair because 8 just isn’t enough. The ZA/ZG debacle had 3 parts. First, both the Valor rewards and gear were better from them than the previous dungeons so people had to run those when they dropped, but the gear itself wasn’t even close to raids that had been out, meaning it was a terrible catch-up mechanism. Second, they were harder than they should have been for the rewards they gave out. Third, they were the only new content that came out for nearly a year.

        Mists on the other hand had a ton of content, so even though I was disappointed in only having 9 dungeons, we had a lot of scenarios, scenarios added, and every patch added content. I could forgive that, and stay subbed, but during the WoD beta people asked if there would be more dungeons, as that seemed to be a sticking point with larger part of the player base. The response was the typically cryptic yes, so I got my hopes up, but what I got was “Mythic” dungeons and Timewalking. I should have known better. Not new content but recycled, which is pretty obvious if you look at the answer.

        The part that has me confused is how we’re going from “People who don’t want to raid need content to do” to “That content should offer rewards so strong that Mythic raiders feel obliged to do said content.”

        You yourself have said that rewards below current mythic are good enough, it’s why I started where I did. It certainly seems that when they do put content in with rewards below Mythic you can cope, but your responses here imply otherwise. It’s also important to note that the new content is best used as a catch-up/alternate gearing mechanism so making new content drop sub-LFR gear means no one runs it. Hell, Tanaan is giving out better than LFR gear now, with upgradeablity to just under mythic.

        I’m not trying to make your life harder, but in a gear-as-progression game, making most content give out useless gear means no one is going to engage with that content. To keep those people engaged they need to feel as though they are progressing, and if you are getting rid of the Valor grind, there had better be a way to progress and catch up outside of raiding.

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      • “(Not my situation, but indicative of tuning).”

        That post just highlights a player who completely ignored every mechanic — he both ignored it visually and ignored people calling out over voice communication for him to react — in favor of just tunneling the boss. I don’t see what that has to do with tuning at all. That player couldn’t even perform adequately in a Heroic Dungeon.

        And we’re not talking some Hexos-dance or Mythic H&F stampers or something — it was literally “You get a debuff and you have 8 seconds to notice and move 10 yards to the edge of the room.”

        “the part I quoted had you complaining about dungeons dropping better-than-LFR gear”

        Er…did you just stop reading there or something? Look at the very next paragraph…

        “If Blizzard made 5 mans give valor for gear slightly below LFR each tier, I wouldn’t object in terms of how it would affect me, at least. Because I can ignore that and focus on the grind that I *already* do.

        Could even do between LFR and normal if you make sure you have some sort of daily or weekly cap to avoid it rendering LFR gear irrelevant.”

        Note that I didn’t say “It has to be lower than LFR or it’s bad” but rather “Lower than LFR wouldn’t affect me.” Technically anything below Heroic wouldn’t affect me, but that doesn’t mean we should then make things worse for the Normal/Heroic raiders. I’m watching out for *all* raiders, not just myself.

        “If Blizzard were to listen to what you said, and take it at face value, “Mythic” dungeons wouldn’t have been made either.”

        Leaving aside the problems I just pointed out above with the “face value” bit…Mythic dungeons actually have a difficulty that corresponds to the increased rewards. I have never complained about/objected to/etc difficult 5 mans offering good rewards. The issue is running the same faceroll 5 mans indefinitely with ever increasing rewards.

        “but the gear itself wasn’t even close to raids that had been out, meaning it was a terrible catch-up mechanism.”

        Huh? They were 6 ilvls below normal raids. Heroic Dungeons gave 346, ZA/ZG gave 353, normal raids gave 359. ZA/ZG were in fact specifically added to make normal raids easier for people struggling in them (because they could get better gear). This was all before Firelands came out.

        You can certainly argue that ZA/ZG were simply too difficult for their intended purpose, but the gear level in them was closer to raid gear than any other heroic dungeon…ever.

        “Third, they were the only new content that came out for nearly a year.”

        Does the Molten Front not count?

        “It’s also important to note that the new content is best used as a catch-up/alternate gearing mechanism so making new content drop sub-LFR gear means no one runs it.”

        Dragon Soul LFR dropped 384 with tier/trinkets/etc. The dungeons with the same patch dropped 378. Are you claiming that no one was running those 378 dungeons for catch-up/alternate progression?

        (Because people sure as hell were).

        That said, with the changes to raids I don’t think having a weekly capped currency giving gear between normal and LFR would be a problem, possibly even equal to normal.

        “Hell, Tanaan is giving out better than LFR gear now, with upgradeablity to just under mythic.”

        695 is 10 ilvls below the first Heroic drops…how do you figure “just under mythic?”

        “if you are getting rid of the Valor grind, there had better be a way to progress and catch up outside of raiding.”

        First of all, my immediate question is “catch-up to WHAT?” If your goal is to raid, then in 6.0 and 6.1 catching up was never easier in the history of WoW. However, it did require doing LFR and normal and/or heroic of older raids (in addition to other things like crafting, apexis gear, and so on). And since HM/BRF was the current tier, there wasn’t really anything to catch-up TO if you weren’t raiding.

        In the current tier/patch of 6.2, you can get full 650 extremely easily, full 695s if you get the Apexis crystals which Tanaan showers down on you. Not to mention three crafted 715s or BoEs. Do you need more than that (699ish ilvl) as a non-raider?

        And if you’re raiding, you have 3 LFRs and can easily pug the nerfed HM/BRF on normal/heroic to catch-up even faster.

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      • That post just highlights a player who completely ignored every mechanic — he both ignored it visually and ignored people calling out over voice communication for him to react — in favor of just tunneling the boss. I don’t see what that has to do with tuning at all. That player couldn’t even perform adequately in a Heroic Dungeon.

        I can’t think of one pre-Garrosh fight in Flex SoO that relied on one player following mechanics to not wipe the raid. Closest I can think of is Sha. Normal is overtuned. It should be the equivalent of Kharazan late BC if you are looking to have a Friends and Family raid, but that’s been the complaint since day one of WoD raids. Hell, Brackenspore killed so many raids I pugged, either because I had to sacrifice my dps to do the flamethrower or because others couldn’t do them properly. Yeah gear eventually took care of that, but not pug friendly.

        Huh? They were 6 ilvls below normal raids. Heroic Dungeons gave 346, ZA/ZG gave 353, normal raids gave 359. ZA/ZG were in fact specifically added to make normal raids easier for people struggling in them (because they could get better gear). This was all before Firelands came out.

        Except for the Valor and weapons, they were terrible. Justice got you 346 blues, Valor 359 purples. The only slot you couldn’t fill with Valor gear was the main hand drops in the Zul’s. Terrible as catch-up content, especially considering they were the only weapon drops available outside a raid until patch 4.3 dungeons. Imagine how many people spent a whole year with one weapon.

        Dragon Soul LFR dropped 384 with tier/trinkets/etc. The dungeons with the same patch dropped 378. Are you claiming that no one was running those 378 dungeons for catch-up/alternate progression?

        No, but I do claim people won’t now. If anything it’s the opposite of Cata LFR. LFR gear is obsolete within a few weeks because of the Tanaan gearing. Those people who are looking to get into a normal run would see more upgrades from the outdoor grind than from LFR. It’s almost a direct violation of the RNG-as-content argument that Blizzard trots out constantly. It’s certainly more likely to get you the items you need and not extend out play time for most LFR players. Except maybe hunters looking to transmog that god awful tier set. Sad that the LFR mail set actually looks better.

        Does the Molten Front not count?

        Fine, 6 ilvl in 3 slots behind a horrid grind. So much better than running the same 2 dungeons ad nauseum. Middle Cata and WoD have been the most static experience in WoW that I have had since I dinged 70 in a social/leveling guild.

        First of all, my immediate question is “catch-up to WHAT?” If your goal is to raid, then in 6.0 and 6.1 catching up was never easier in the history of WoW. However, it did require doing LFR and normal and/or heroic of older raids (in addition to other things like crafting, apexis gear, and so on). And since HM/BRF was the current tier, there wasn’t really anything to catch-up TO if you weren’t raiding.

        Not a huge fan of raiding the same raid to raid. Raids should be what you strive for, not what you do to do more of what you’ve done, grinding LFR, to grind Normal, to grind Heroic. This expansion and Cataclysm are the two that essentially ask you to do that since Blizzard established catch-up mechanisms. Before that you had faction grinds and dungeons, content outside of the raids themselves.

        Look, all I want is gear progression that lets me test myself, that I can do with 4 friends, without having to find 5-25 more, that is new content, not rehashed, warmed over, tired material. Now all I have is the hope that I don’t get into a group of mouthbreathers in a normal raid after spending an hour in Group Finder asking every open group if they need a dps, and no other content short of that.

        I’m not trying to convince you that you aren’t having fun, that you aren’t enjoying yourself, all I am trying to get across is that this expac feels skimpy if you aren’t either a raider, or don’t care about social play outside of RP. I’d probably be fine with “Mythic” dungeons had I not exhausted my tolerance of them long ago, simply because they were the only thing to do.

        I would think that you’d like to see me and others like me happy, so that we keep subbed and you keep getting the content you like. We don’t know below what threshold they won’t be able to pay the people who make your favored content, even though FFXIV can do it with less than 4 million subs, so you probably aren’t close, but I hope you never stop raiding, because there’s nothing else right now.

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      • Given that Azuriel seems to have lost interest in this post and the comment chain has gotten so long it is a massive pain to navigate/reply to, I’m moving the discussion here if you’re interested in continuing it: http://balkothsword.blogspot.com/2015/07/more-thoughts-on-casual-progression-in.html

        Like

  10. People don’t want more frequent expansions, they want more frequent content. No one is sitting around saying “damn, wish I could give Blizz another $40 this month on top of my $15”, what they do want is to feel that their $15 is paying for something more than just access to the server.

    Thing is, Blizzard has somehow twisted the ‘more content’ requests into ‘more boxes for sale’, which is clever until it actually happens and people start bitching about having to buy a box more often.

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    • Yep, exactly. When people were saying “we want expansions faster,” they really meant “stop giving us 10-14 months of nothing.” Now we have the same amount of content as before, but have to pay for it twice. And odds are that we’ll still have to wait 10+ months in-between.

      Like

    • “what they do want is to feel that their $15 is paying for something more than just access to the server.”

      Do you have *any* idea how many times I’ve seen people whine about “Just a stupid patch with more quests/dailies with gear that will be replaced anyway?”

      I’ve seen a lot of people who pretty much only care about expansions because they try to play WoW as a single player RPG, more or less, and hate the idea of grinds of any sort (be they rep or gear). They basically want Dragon Age: MMO. They’re happy to shell out $60 every 2-4 weeks on a new game. They’re people to whom money is a lot less of an object than fun (because even buying two $60 games a month is only $1,440 a year).

      Note that I’m not saying $1,440 a year for entertainment isn’t a major expense for many people…just that there are also a lot of people for who (whom? Can never remember) it isn’t. Think of the whole “whale” idea in F2P games and how much money people dish out for cosmetic items in general. Hell, think of how many people have bought *every* store pet/mount Blizzard has offered in WoW alone.

      “And odds are that we’ll still have to wait 10+ months in-between.”

      If that happens in WoD then I will join you in vehemently decrying Blizzard. Fair enough?

      Like

  11. You could also add “professions”:
    TBC added Jewelcrafting
    WotLK added Inscription
    Cataclysm added Archeology
    MoP added Pet Battle

    WoD added… nothing.

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  1. Pingback: WoW Raiding Done for WoD | Leo's Life

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